um… ……

No problem. The Adventist are are one of the more anti-catholic groups out there. The only thing you can do is show them where they are in error and pray for them if that does not work. They probably think they are helping the “poor” Catholics see the truth and don’t realize that it is offensive. Let me know if I can help you out with anything else.

Chris

Did the doctor give you the film in his office while on business? This seems very unprofessional. I would consider another doctor if this is the case. If the doctor gave me the tape I would kindly give him some Catholic material out of gratitude!:-)

There are several Bible passages that show a change from Saturday or the Seventh Day worship to Sunday worship in the Bible. I will list some of these, but I would also like to quote some early Church writings that show clearly that the change to Sunday worship came early in the Church.

Acts 20:7 shows us that the “Lord’s Day was being celebrated on the first day of the week or Sunday early on in the Church.

7: On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 continues the idea that worship had been moved from the seventh day to the “Lord’s Day”.

1: Now concerning the contribution for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. 2: On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come.

Revelation 1:10 speaks of the Lord’s day:

10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet

Colossians 2:16-17 strongly points to the sabbath as a foreshadowing of the Lord’s day.

16: Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. 17: These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Now I want to look at a couple early church writings that point to the fact that the Lord’s day took the place of Saturday worship. The first writing I want to look at is from the Didache. The Didache is an first century writing. It is one of the oldest non Biblical Christian writings.

On the Lord’s Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.(The Faith of the Early Fathers:Volume 1:pg 4)

Ignatius of Antioch writing in the second century in his letter to the Magnesians writes:

If, then, those who walked in ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer sabbathing but living the Lord’s Day, on which we came to life through Him and through His death. (Faith of the Early Fathers Volume 1 pg:19)

The Lord’s day has replaced the sabbath, as the Lord’s day is on the day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This practice was not started by Constantine. This practice was started in Biblical times and we see witness to it in the writings of the early church Fathers. There are many other examples that I could point to. I always recommend catholic.com if you want more information on these subjects.

Would you rather take the opinion of people writing in the first centuries over those who came up with new “traditions” in the last couple of hundred years? I know who I would look to!

God Bless,

Chris

I finally found some time to continue answering some of your questions. Sorry for the delay. Hopefully this will answer some of your questions about confession. Confession is one of the seven “sacraments of faith” in the Catholic Church.

The Bible gives ample evidence of the authority given to the Church to forgive and retain sins. Let us look at several of these passages.

Matthew 16:19
19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18
18: Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven
John:20:23
23: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Acts 19:18
18: Many also of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.
2Corinthians 2:18
10: Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,

James 5:15
15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.

1 John 1:9
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Here you have various passages that infer that confession of sins was practiced in the early Christian Church of the Bible. We also clearly see that there were those who were given the authority to bind and loose This was authority which also included the forgiveness of sins. I think that John 20:23 shows that Jesus gave authority to the disciples to go out and not just forgive, but also retain sins. I will agree that this practice developed over time but the practice of confession was part of the early Church.
I also would like to point out that 1 John 1:9 places an “if” condition on forgiveness of sins. The passage clearly says “if” we confess our sins. That Jesus will forgive our sins. It clearly says that we have to do something. This is part of the obedience of Faith that Paul talks about in Romans 1:5. Belief is not just acknowledgment of Jesus as Lord, it is obedience to what he taught. Baptism, the Eucharist, confession of sins, and all of Jesus’ teachings are part of this obedience. These are not the “works of the law” that Paul is talking about.
Since I already brought up the passage that talks about the prayer of the righteous (James 5:16), I will give a brief answer to your question about intercessory prayer.
“Intercessory prayer” is the type of prayer that are given to the Saints in heaven that have been perfected in Jesus Christ. We ask them to intercede on our behalf. 1 Tim 2:1-4 says:
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

Do you ever ask anyone to pray for you in a time of need? Have you ever prayed for anyone in a time of need? If so does this squander the wonderful connection God gave to us? Not at all. As Christians we are all part of the Body of Christ! I like to look at 1 Corinthians 12:26 to help explain this.
If one member suffers all suffer together, if one member is honored all rejoice together. Jesus rejoices any time anyone of his body is honored and he it does not take away from the special connection by asking those in heaven to pray for us just as it does not by asking our brethren on Earth to pray for us. The word pray literally means “to ask”. And that is all we are doing when we ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us.
Revelation 8:3-4 and Rev 5:8 both indicate that those in heaven are aware of our prayers and that they present them to God.
Rev 8:3-4
[3] And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne;
[4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

Rev 5:8
[8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
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Hopefully I have helped you understand the Catholic view on the various topics that you inquired about. If you have anymore questions or if I left something out, please let me know. There are plenty of Catholic resources that can give a more in depth explanation for all these topics. Catholic Answers, EWTN and many other sights provide excellent information on the Catholic Church.

Thanks for the post and I do appreciate the non-confrontational tone of your comment. It makes it easier to discuss these questions when they are brought in a non aggressive manner.

You have brought up quite a few concepts in your post and I hope to answer most of your questions. I thought it might be easier to answer one question at a time, rather than try to tackle them all in one shot. This may take a few days but the answer(s) you get should be more complete.

I would like to start by answering your question about purgatory first, but before I do that I think that we need to clarify that the Catholic Church does not adhere to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. The Church and the Bible teach us that not everything taught by the Jesus and the Apostles was written down. The Church does hold scripture in high esteem since it is the Word of God. The problem is that the Word of God was not only written down, it was passed on orally by the Apostles. This is Sacred Tradition. This is not to be confused with the traditions of men that Jesus condemned (only if they nullify the word of God–Jesus did not condemn all tradition). Now that we have that straight I can explain the concept of Purgatory and how that concept is, indeed, Biblical.

There are concepts that are accepted by the majority of Christians even though the words that are used to explain the concepts are not found in the Bible. The concept of the Trinity is one such example. Purgatory is another example of a word that is not found in the Bible but the concept is there.

Before I get to the passages that support the concept of Purgatory, I want to clarify some misunderstandings of what purgatory is and what it is not. Purgatory has nothing at all to do with our eternal salvation. Christ is the only one who can remove the eternal penalty due to sin. Purgatory only removes the temporal effects of sin. The temporal effects of sin are still with mankind. Two examples of temporal effects caused by sin are death and sickness. These remain even though Jesus takes away the eternal penalty of sin! All who go to purgatory are already saved, so if they are already saved then it follows that purgatory has nothing to do with the eternal salvation.

The first part of the concept of Purgatory that I would like to look at is the idea that nothing unclean can enter Heaven . Rev 21:27 NAB says:

27
but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
This passage shows the concept that only the clean or righteous will enter heaven. How does one get cleaned up or how does one remove the temporal effects of sin? Other passages that reinforce this are Matthew 5:8 and Hebrews 12:14. Will you agree that sin stains the soul?

Now I would like to look at 2 Corinthians 5:10. This passage indicates that we will all receive recompense for what we do. The key to understanding this is that Paul is writing to believers in Corith and telling them that even though you may be saved you will be judged by what you do.

For we must all appear 7 before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.
This leads me to 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. This passage is probably the passage that provides the most support for the doctrine of purgatory in the New Testament.
10 6 According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, 11 for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
This passage strongly points to a process or place where one is purified from their their sinful acts. It also indicates that this will involve suffering but still be saved. This is not hell and this is not heaven. The Catholic Church calls this place purgatory. Mark 9:49 and Psalm 99:8 give us evidence that God does give forgiveness but still punishes us as discipline as a way to refine or purify us.
Finally, there are two Deuterocanonical passages that are relevant to the doctrine of purgatory. 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 is one of the commonly cited passages used as support for purgatory. The practice of prayers for the dead is also clearly here. The reason this passage is cited is because praying for the dead would be needless if there was only heaven and hell. The only reason to pray for the souls of the dead would be ones that needed them for another reason. The prayers were for the atonement of the dead. The prayers were used to help make the sinners one with God. The other passage that is cited is Sirach 7:33.
I hope that I gave you the biblical rationale for the doctrine of purgatory. There are others who have provided more detail than I on this subject. Catholic Answers (catholic.com) has some good reference material on the subject matter and their message boards generally have some good information. The people there are generally well behaved if you ask them questions in the manner you have asked me. They do get feisty if you ask them in a more confrontational manner.
I will continue answering your questions tomorrow. I hope to answer your questions about confession and if I have time some of the others.

Thanks for the post! I am going to try to answer all of your questions. I want to tackle one at a time to make it easier to follow. I am going to put the answers on a new post because I think that these are some good questions. I will post them here also. I hope to have something up regarding Purgatory tonight.

Thanks again and God bless.

Chris

I like what you have written on this blog. I personally am lutheran, but I have many friends who are roman catholic and i respect roman catholicism.

I was wondering if you could explain, from a roman catholic perspective, the idea of confession and purgatory with achieving eternal salvation. I dont mean to offend or attack the Roman Catholic church, but I have read throughout the bible and almost every quote I have found (John 3:16, Romans 3:22-27, Ephesians 2:8-9, to name a few) says to receive eternal salvation , one needs faith in God and Jesus. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that we are NOT saved through works. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe confession constitutes as works. The only book of the bible that I have found that contradicts this statement is the book of James, which reminds christians to also have good works to ‘boost their faith’. “So faith by itself , if it has no works, is dead”.

Please do not think that I am am saying good works are unimportant. As Paul says in Romans 6 1a-3, “Should we continue to sin so that grace may be abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?”. Works just no longer become part of salvation. As we have died to sin in Jesus Christ, sin no longer has dominion over us. Works become part of being a christian. Works to receive Gods forgiveness are part of the old covenant of genesis, exodus, and leviticus.

Please also do not also think that confession is unimportant. We still should confess our sins, it is just not a necessary part of salvation.

Also, please explain to me about purgatory. When I talk to catholic friends about purgatory, I ask them ‘Where in the bible does it talk about purgatory?’ They do not know the answer, and neither do I. Purgatory, from all that I have seen and heard, is an essential part of Roman Catholic salvation. And yet nowhere in the bible does it talk about purgatory! I have nothing against Roman Catholic customs from the early church, yet why should a church base it’s idea of salvation around its customs rather than the words of god himself through Jesus and the Holy spirit through his apostles?

This has to do with all of the arguments that you have set up. Many of them are based on early church customs. Why set up a church based on traditions and customs rather than the word of God himself? Any practices that relate directly to the gospel or letters, in my mind, is almost certainly a valid practice.

Please forgive me if I am stereotyping. When I say ‘you’, I am referring to the Roman Catholic Church. As I said in the start of this letter, I do not mean to offend, but to clarify a point. If I say anything here which could be considered untruthful, please correct me. Martin Luther himself was a Roman Catholic, and meant to reform, not separate. As it says in the bible, “A house divided against itself cannot stand”. We Christians, as the catholic or universal church should unite together as believers in Christ. I do not write to offend, but to attempt to find the truth in Christ.

Also, you have written: ‘When Catholics “pray” to the saints they are merely asking the saints in heaven to pray for them just like we ask each other to pray for us. The prayers of the righteous availeth much… as the Bible says and the Saints in heaven are more righteous than either you or I am’. First, I would like to know where that is quoted. Also, even if saints are more righteous, they all fall short of the glory of god. Even Paul, one of the greatest saints, says in Romans “Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Also when Jesus died to end sin, the Temple curtain tore in half. The temple curtain in Jerusalem was the symbol on earth that separated man from god, which only purified priests could pass through once a year. Through his death, Jesus broke the barrier between God and man. All men, not just purified priests, could now stand in front of God and enter his kingdom. Jesus gave his pure life for this gift, a gift of grace. Mankind crucified Jesus, and he gave us all he had. Praying through saints is squandering this wonderful connection God gave us in death. If God died for our sins, surely he will listen to our prayers. We have the Holy spirit living in us! Surely if God is part of us, humans created in gods image can pray to him. Why should God care more if a less flawed human prays to him rather than a more flawed? As Jesus said, He came for the wicked, not the righteousness.

Please forgive me for any false statements that I have made, or stereotypes of the Catholic church I have presented, or any other sin or mistake present in this letter. I wish to challenge any false beliefs of any church not based in the bible.

We all, as the people of God, are all part of the catholic Church, as it states in the apostles creed. May all those who suffer for there belief in Christ be blessed. “It is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of Christ” (Acts 14:24)

God bless you and bring peace to the world.

indecisivenerd

If you are interested in detail on Jack Chick’s publication on Alberto Rivera’s testimony about the Vatican Islam Conspiracy then let me know. I wrote one.

Here is a link to a Jewish Catholic web page that you may find interesting.
http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com

Just a quick note as I don’t have a lot of time tonight.
Simcha Jacobovici Aka the Naked Archaelogist is the same person who was part of the documentary about the Lost Tomb of Jesus. His credibility in this field I find lacking. His show on that topic was almost a joke. A non believing coworker even thought it was weak. If the Naked Archaelogist show was about a ossuary of Simon Bar Jonah, I also find that a very weak premise. That name was more than likely common. I could go on. I refer to these types of shows as speculative history. They have numerous theories and little substance. I find it very interesting that they usually are aired around Easter and Christmas. Could it be for ratings?

I do appreciate that we have kept this conversation civil… as believers of Christ should. I do intensely disagree with many of you comments. I have learned some things that I have never really thought about but that naturally is the case when you hear other view points. Like you said before we can agree to disagree. Prior to this, I really had not broached this subject matter. I will keep you in my prayers and God Bless. Feel free to comment in the future.

David,

Thanks for the comment. You made some very good points. I am not sure if this is what Michael experienced but I am sure that this could influence some. The Catholic Faith and Culture is a treasure for the world that many are not aware of. The Catholic culture does have a rich tapestry of art and music that is largely ignored.
I hope you continue to peruse the Blog and feel free to comment.
God Bless

I’m not saying Jesus practiced Judaism either; however Judaism is not technically a religion; it is rather the complete support of the Torah…so, I guess you could say that He did practice it. He was it. You are also correct when you say that He was the ultimate sacrifice. True. I believe that with all my heart.

Perhaps people do have some issues with the “Complete Jewish Bible.” Probably because they don’t know how to read it. I also happen to have many issues with a lot of other translations. For instance, in Mark where you spoke of the “food.” You have to understand that when Jesus spoke in parables, He spoke in a way that people could relate. You also have to read further back in the chapter (7). Jesus was speaking more of knowledge. It isn’t what goes in but what comes out…how you interpret it. Otherwise, how do you explain the prayer shawl that was dropped down by God before Peter. For hundreds of years Christians have interpreted his vision as God’s permission to kill and eat any animal..which it clearly isn’t. It was a vision to let Peter know that he and other Jewish-Christians were permitted to enter the homes of Gentiles to bring them the good news of Christ and his teachings. Peter even told God when God said, “Rise, Peter, kill and eat.” But Peter said, “Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” so God told him again “what God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.” God used the Jewish dietary laws to bring the point to Peter and Peter never gave into the temptation. Peter knew that God would never change HIS word or HIS LAWS. He may explain it or show meaning in different ways as Jesus often did but He knew that God would never abolish it; nor did Jesus for He Himself said, “I did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.” God was only testing Peter. God was not cleansing unclean animals making them clean. He was showing Peter that he was about to cleanse the hearts of people whom the Jews considered to be unclean. The same example Jesus used in Mark 7. But you also need to read further about the book of Mark..the Bible even says that the early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have some of the scriptures at the end of Mark…so it would make us wonder…what else has been possibly lost?

Personally, eating pork is your choice and mine. If you do, great and that is a choice of yours and if I don’t, then that’s fine too as it is a choice of mine. Brothers are to live together in harmony. While you may believe a certain way, that is your belief..and I have mine. All I know is that the truth stands alone; it does not lean one way or the other. Truth is perfectly balanced.

As far as pagan holidays. That is a personal choice also. If Jesus wanted us to celebrate His birth, He would have told us so. I choose to celebrate Passover; not Easter. Jesus; especially with easter falling so early this year, was clearly still alive. It makes no sense to celebrate easter before Passover so for me personally, that is just following another tradition of man. Easter was focused around the worship of the sun. I celebrate not the death but the resurrection of my Lord. His death and resurrection would have occurred 14 days from yesterday since yesterday was the new moon. God centered his timing around the moon; not the sun. I could go on and on as well but frankly I am growing tired. We will agree to disagree and may God continue to be with you and bless you. See you in Heaven, brother.

No one is saying that Jesus and the Apostles werent Jews. The problem is that they preached the Gospel to all nations not just to the Jews. Peter and Paul went to Rome as well as other places and so did the other Apostles. Christianity or whatever you choose to call it was forced out of Israel for various reasons. The temple was destroyed and they were persecuted by the non Christian Jews. St. Stephen was stoned in Jerusalem. James was killed in Jerusalem. The apostles appointed Bishops and presbyters(priests) and deacons in the places they went. The religion soon included both Jew and Gentile alike. The religion became centered in Rome because of the destruction of Jerusalem. Peter and Paul died in Rome and Peter’s successors appointed in Rome are the Popes of today.

It is commonly accepted that Jesus declared all foods clean in the Gospel ofMark 7:17-18. I do eat pork occasionally because of this. Like circumcision, the dietary laws passed away. What you eat does not save you or defile you. There are other passages that refer to this but I am running out of time today.

Scrolls were used early on because the codex or book, was not invented until the second century.
I would really like to know the location of these secret original scrolls of the NT, because I can’t seem to find any reference to them. My impression I am getting is that the “Complete Jewish Bible” is taken from the same early manuscripts that some other translations are taken from. The only difference is that Dr. Stern used the Jewish versions of names and such. I know that many people have some issues with the translation.

I found this at wikipedia on the origins of December 25th as the birth of Jesus.
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It is unknown exactly when or why December 25 became associated with Christ’s birth. The New Testament does not give a specific date.[17] Sextus Julius Africanus popularized the idea that Christ was born on December 25 in his Chronographiai, a reference book for Christians written in AD 221.[14] This date is nine months after the traditional date of the Incarnation (March 25), now celebrated as the Feast of the Annunciation. March 25 was considered to be the date of the vernal equinox and early Christians believed this was also the date Christ was crucified. The Christian idea that Christ was conceived on the same date that he died on the cross is consistent with a Jewish belief that a prophet lived an integral number of years.[18]

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As you can see, this proves that it was not Constantine that gave the date of December 25. It was done far before Christianity was legalized and the reasons for it were not connected to paganism. Easter has reasons for why it is celebrated when it is and they are not connected to Constantine either. They were established early on in the Church.

Jesus would not command his Apostles to make disciples of all nations if he practiced strict Judaism as that would have made the Apostles unclean. He gave the Apostles the Authority to Bind and Loose and this authority was passed down. Many of the Jewish ceremonial laws were no longer valid because Jesus had fullfilled them in his death. Animal sacrifice is no longer required because Jesus fulfilled it and instituted a new bloodless sacrifice in the Eucharist. Do you have animal sacrifices and if not… why not?

I am having trouble with some of your reasoning. You are basing everything on the premise that Jesus was a Jew and since he was a Jew his religion must still be identical to Judaism. While the first part is true, Christianity grew out of Judaism and became something more. It became the Church for all of mankind. It is a universal Church that is Jewish and at the same time more than Jewish. It is the completion of Judaism and it included Jews and Gentiles alike. The apostle Paul is widely considered the Apostle to the Gentiles and many of the problems that you have with Catholicism and Christianity in general were resolved in the Book of Acts.

Have a good evening and God Bless

I would suggest you read some of the early Church fathers that were handed on teachings from the apostles. Of course their writings are not scriptural but many were handed the office of “Bishop”(overseer) from the apostles. Some were taught by the apostles. I find their writings give an interesting insight to the early Church. Some of the writers like Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Irenaeus of Lyon, Justin Martyr and many more are treasures of the Church.

All these men wrote before Christianity was legalized by Constantine and many were killed for their beliefs as “Christians”. Did you know that the Eplstle of Clement to the Corinthians was considered scripture by some in the early Church and that the New Testament Canon was not set until the fourth century by the Catholic Church. Some of the books were disputed like Revelation and Hebrews and others. The Church, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, set the list of books in the NT Canon.

One thing ,you should strongly consider, is that the Bible does not say that words have to be in the Bible for them to be used by believers. Often words are transliterations or descriptions of concepts. To reject words because they are not in the Bible is just not Biblical.

God bless

You are absolutely correct however about how a disagreement should be handled. I thank you sincerely for your prayers. Praise God for your healing as well. Thank you and God Bless.