The Salvo Noodle challenge said:
We will keep it simple and clean… the Bible and nothing else.”
Because my friend has gone outside the boundaries of rules of the discussion and have interjected his views on what he thinks Catholicism teaches regarding salvation, I feel it necessary to tell him and the readers what Catholicism teachs from the horses mouth. He broke the rules of the discussion by taking it here. He is not using scripture to discuss the subject at hand. I am dissapointed that he has taken it here but be it as it may I will continue on. His comments will be in red.
You said:
Before I speak to Scripture directly I think it would be beneficial to have a clearer understanding of the Catholic point of view with regards to salvation, grace, faith and justification. From a Catholic viewpoint, faith alone is indeed not enough. The grace of God is not enough in itself… it is just a starting point. Justification comes through meritorious actions (or cooperation) through the performing of “good works” and the seven sacraments of Catholicism. Essentially… Roman Catholicism espouses a works-salvation. Here’s how (in a very brief nutshell)…
The Church Says in the CCC(Catechism):
143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God. With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, “the obedience of faith”.
144 To obey (from the Latin ob-audire, to “hear or listen to”) in faith is to submit freely to the word that has been heard, because its truth is guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself. Abraham is the model of such obedience offered us by Sacred Scripture. The Virgin Mary is its most perfect embodiment.
145 The Letter to the Hebrews, in its great eulogy of the faith of Israel’s ancestors, lays special emphasis on Abraham’s faith: “By faith, Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.” By faith, he lived as a stranger and pilgrim in the promised land. By faith, Sarah was given to conceive the son of the promise. And by faith Abraham offered his only son in sacrifice.
146 Abraham thus fulfills the definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”: “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Because he was “strong in his faith”, Abraham became the “father of all who believe”.147 The Old Testament is rich in witnesses to this faith. The Letter to the Hebrews proclaims its eulogy of the exemplary faith of the ancestors who “received divine approval”. Yet “God had foreseen something better for us”: the grace of believing in his Son Jesus, “the pioneer and perfecter of our faith”.
148 The Virgin Mary most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith. By faith Mary welcomes the tidings and promise brought by the angel Gabriel, believing that “with God nothing will be impossible” and so giving her assent: “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word.” Elizabeth greeted her: “Blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.” It is for this faith that all generations have called Mary blessed.
149 Throughout her life and until her last ordeal when Jesus her son died on the cross, Mary’s faith never wavered. She never ceased to believe in the fulfillment of God’s word. And so the Church venerates in Mary the purest realization of faith.
150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.
151 For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his “beloved Son”, in whom the Father is “well pleased”; God tells us to listen to him. The Lord himself said to his disciples: “Believe in God, believe also in me.” We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: “No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.” Because he “has seen the Father”, Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.
152 One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For “no one can say “Jesus is Lord”, except by the Holy Spirit”, who “searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God.” Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God.The Church never ceases to proclaim her faith in one only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
1. Salvation does begin with God’s grace or what’s known as “first actual grace”… this is the initial reaching out of God to an unbeliever and calling them to faith.
While this does not appear to be problematic please site your source even though you broke your own rules.
2. In order for this actual grace to become effectual… one must respond to it cooperatively which would involve doctrinal acceptance. Through the act of cooperation one will move towards “salutary acts”. It’s this performing of good works that will prepare someone for baptism and justification.
Sources please. How does infant baptism fit into your statement?
3. Upon baptism into the Catholic Church, “original sin” is removed from the soul and in its place “sanctifying grace” is infused. This “initial justification” or “justifying grace” cannot be meritoriously earned so this is also by God’s grace.
Amen. The whole reason for Jesus’s sacrifice has been removed through this act which is done thru Faith. The application of the MERITS of Jesus death on the Cross is realized in the act. Purely through Jesus.Our personal race of perserverance in Faith has begun. Actually an adult has all SIN removed not just “original sin”.
4. An interesting point here is that depending on the level of pre-baptismal preparations (or level of commitment) the amount of infused sanctifying grace will vary. Essentially, the more committed you are… the more grace you get in your starting bank.
How can you have pre-baptismal preparation if you are a baby which is the age of most Catholic Baptisms? If you are talking about RCIA for baptism of adults please give examples and sources for these statements. This is a totally false statement as Baptism removes the stain of all sin. You are a new creation as the Bible says. More misinformation. Here is what the Church Says:
1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!”
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, “the tinder for sin” (fomes peccati); since concupiscence “is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ.” Indeed, “an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”This references 2 Tim 2
2:1 You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him. 5 An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. 6 It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops. 7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
We also see in this passage that we are strenghten by the grace that is in Christ Jesus. The main difference that we have is in how that Grace is applied in order to strenghten us. How did Jesus intend to apply that grace. We agree that our salvation comes from the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross but we disagree on how he transmits that Grace. At the end of this post or in a following post I will show what the Bible says.
5. It’s very important to understand this first step… for without baptism into the Catholic Church, there can be no removal of original sin and replacement with initial justification. There’s no hope of salvation unless you are baptized into the Catholic Church.
This is a very false and misleading statement of what the Church teachs. Lets see what the Church actually teachs. We have gone over this before. You should be ashamed of yourself. This is what the Church actually teachs:
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
6. The second aspect of one’s justification is where the works really come into play. Throughout the rest of your life you must “cooperate” with God’s grace and progress in doing good works… thereby earning yourself more grace that you can apply towards final justification. If you are lax in your Catholicism then you’re going to regret it in the end. The uncertain hope here is that you might somehow, if you’re “good enough”, gain full and final justification before you die.
(will answer later)
7. However, there’s a danger along the way… “mortal sin”. If one were to commit a deliberate and serious sin then your stocked reservoir of grace is wiped out. Basically, if you screw up bad enough… then you’re back to square one and you have to start meriting the acquisition of grace again through good works and the performing of sacraments.
(will answer later)
8. A Catholic cannot know with certainty whether or not they are “saved” in this life… this knowledge is reserved for death. While living, it is the duty of a Catholic to do as many good works as possible in cooperation with the grace of God in order to work their way towards a favorable positioning before final justification. But, you really never know where you’re at… there’s a scale your being measured against and you don’t clearly know what it is.
Hence, “works-salvation”… continuous life-long works with no certainty in God’s grace or salvation. So when a Catholic say, “we believe in justification by grace” it’s important to remember the above cliff’s notes… they are just speaking of “initial justification”. The rest is work that you must do… the less you do in this life the more time you have in a fiery purgatory. Which is a whole other problem in itself.
(Will answer later)
So, let’s take a look at what my Catholic friend said in closing, but with the backdrop of what Rome would have you believe…
“These passages allude to the faith working in love that I am talking about. Faith in and of itself does not suffice. As Saint James say faith without works is dead. If you love Jesus you do as he says. I reject Sola Fide because of these verses and others and the fact that the only place in scripture that uses the word alone with the word faith faith it says “Not” saved by faith alone.
I want to end by saying that any good work that we do is by the Grace of God alone, without his supernatural love they could not be done and they would merit nothing. This is salvation by God’s Grace alone though Faith working in Love.”
So, when looking at Scripture a Catholic is always going to see through the lens of a works based salvation. Let’s take a closer look at Romans 2:6-11 as a starting point (Matthew 22 & 25 will be part of another post). However, instead of pulling this section out by itself, we are going to look at it in context to other areas of the Book of Romans (which is very important).
ROMANS 2:6-11
“He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.”
YIKES! Kinda sounds like you have to do works in order to be given eternal life huh? But what if we take this section and put it back into the context of the Book of Romans and see what else Paul has to say…
ROMANS 3:20-24
“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,”
Or what about back in verses 1:16-17…
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
So, when you take one section out of the context of the message it rests in it can sound like you need works… but when you re-unite it with the other things that Paul has said it can no longer mean it’s just about works. Is Paul disagreeing with himself? No. Scripture does not disagree with itself… if it did, then everything is up for grabs and it’s all subjective. Scripture always ends up harmonizing when it’s kept in context.
Romans 2:6-11 becomes pretty clear… basically, God’s judgment isn’t based on what we do to others, but how we act towards Him. Those who are good towards God receive life, those who are evil towards God, death. Over in chapter 3 Paul makes it clear that justification comes through faith, not works… and that none of us are righteous which he states in verse 10 of the same chapter. There’s a principle here that Paul is discussing… essentially, “Actions (whether public or private) reveal the nature of a person’s heart”. It’s a straight-forward principle which is indeed true… but it isn’t part of a system of requirements that you need in order to receive salvation (That is, unless you are looking to fit it into a predetermined mindset). If it were so, then Paul is arguing with himself between chapters 2 and 3.
(answered on Salvo-Noodle… the two passages are speaking of different types of works. Good works are not the same as “works of the Law”. That is the context.)
Our justification doesn’t come by what we do… it comes from what we believe about what God did for us. That’s what His grace towards us is… God extended his grace towards us even though we were and continue to be undeserving. That’s true grace and we cannot add or subtract from that which isn’t ours to control or manipulate in the first place. So what do we do with God’s grace? We accept it and we humbly thank God for it! What we don’t do is take it, put it into a system and devalue it by elevating the value of our own “good works”.
Will answer later.
